 
Toldos Avraham Yitzchak: Perception vs. Reality
From The Editor's Desk
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By Larry Gordon
Published on Thursday, November 12, 2009 -
COMMENTS (25)
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| A reception for the Toldos Avraham Yitzchak Rebbe was held Thursday evening of last week at Congregation Shaaray Tefila in Lawrence. Seated are Rabbi Dovid Weinberger (at left) and the Rebbe. Standing are event chairman Sender Schwartz and two aides to the Rebbe. |
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They are seen as firebrands who are by choice isolated and who stick to themselves. They shun the limelight and instead prefer to live a simple, pious, and humble lives without the accouterments of modern life—all in an effort to pull themselves closer to G-d. This week they momentarily transplanted the leadership of the movement to New York, and the Toldos Avraham Yitzchok Rebbe prayed, hosted a tisch, and met with Jews from various backgrounds, sharing a bit of each other’s world.
Their Old World traditions handed down through the generations, however, are also shrouded in controversy, as fringe elements organize sometimes violent demonstrations on the streets of Jerusalem on matters they feel come into conflict with the sanctity of Shabbos, particularly in their carefully cut-out conclaves and neighborhoods. Who the actual players are in these unnecessary and embarrassing demonstrations is largely unclear.
These activities, though, combined with the community’s official position of non-recognition of the legitimacy of the secular State of Israel, brought them at loggerheads with others this week as they seek material support from communities who are identified by their strong support for the State of Israel.
I sat down with the Toldos Avraham Yitzchak Rebbe and his Rebbetzin between appointments to see people last Sunday—some of whom had flown in from other parts of North America—to try to clarify and understand where the Rebbe and his chassidim stand on the all-important issue of support for the State of Israel.
“What it comes down to, very briefly, is that the government violates Shabbos and sanctions this desecration,” the Rebbe said clearly and calmly in Yiddish. “If there would not be this violation of Shabbos, we would have absolutely no problem with the State of Israel.”
The idea that the litmus test for recognition of the State of Israel is the observance of Shabbos was handed down from the Rebbe’s father, the Toldos Ahron Rebbe, who passed away in 1997. The Rebbetzin interjected that the Rebbe is the older of two brothers and by right he should have been the next Toldos Ahron Rebbe. “The Rebbe was too easygoing and soft-spoken on issues, and many of the chassidim wanted a leader who was more of an activist and less of a pacifist,” she said in a very animated Yiddish.
It’s true, she said, that it’s difficult to sit idle and not protest the desecration of Shabbos. “It hurt us to see a Jew riding in a car on Shabbos—and yes,” she added, “even the Rebbe goes outside and protests by declaring three or four times in a raised voice ‘Shabbos,’ but then he goes back inside to his study and goes about his business,” she says.
She explained that those chassidim seen protesting, throwing things, and rioting in Jerusalem this last summer are not the followers of the Toldos Avraham Yitzchok Rebbe. “The people you see in the streets rioting are bums”—she used the English word there—“and people with nothing else to do.”
When the matter was raised about Toldos Avraham Yitzchok’s alleged ties to the infamous Neturei Karta, which protests Israeli policy together with radical Arabs and has met with Iranian President Ahmadinejad in Tehran and here, the Rebbetzin said, “This is something that we are not involved in and have never been involved in. The truth is that this whole business started with Satmar in New York.”
So the strain with the Israeli government and the matter of legitimacy and recognition is a matter that is played out on a very limited basis, though it is costly for the chassidim. It’s not entirely accurate to say that since there is the issue of Shabbos that they refuse to accept any money from the government. The fact is that they live there in Jerusalem; they utilize mass transit, which, though a fare is paid, is still subsidized by the State of Israel. The same is true when you take a drink of water or turn on a light switch.
One area in which this is played out is in chinuch—the education system. This sect, as well as others, refuses to take money from Israel’s Education Ministry for their schools, because they do not want their Torah studies financed by a government that openly and deliberately violates Shabbos. Therefore, their institutions are seriously in debt. And that’s why they are in New York now, to raise money for the considerable education system that they administer.
I suggested to the Rebbe that since he was here in New York seeking vital funding for his educational institutions, perhaps we could arrange for the Israeli government to send us—here in the Diaspora—the money, and then we could in turn give it to his organization. The Rebbe said, with a smile, that it sounded like a good idea, but they have not yet encountered a person who can successfully effectuate that type of arrangement.
The Rebbe unequivocally condemned participation in any kind of riots by chassidim. He said he does not advocate or encourage getting involved in those types of activities, and that he bans any individual who does participate from entering his shul in Jerusalem.
Some voiced their opinion last week that the Rebbe’s visit specifically to Lawrence was in and of itself provocative and that he should be rejected on all levels for representing a group that refuses to lend full legitimacy to the elected government of Israel.
That position, it seems, was based mostly on the need of some to sensationalize, dramatize, and exaggerate a situation that has only a minimal resemblance to reality. It’s odd to think that we, sitting in the Diaspora in New York, are the big pro-Zionists, while those living on the front lines—which is all of Israel—are the anti-Zionists. There’s something incongruous about that thought process, and it is misguided to draw definitive conclusions based on that skewered formula.
A lot of the criticism of the Rebbe’s visit was based on the usual conflict between perception and reality. Coverage by media outlets with limited space to explore all sides of the issue, combined with impatience and inattentiveness by readers, often leads to the wrong conclusions. People often use only droplets of information that are available to them to paint individuals or groups of people with this broad brushstroke that labels them dangerous to the cause of K’lal Yisrael.
Based on what the Rebbe and his wife had to say, and taking them at their word, it seems that they are simply principled people who, as observant Jews, find the desecration of Shabbos in the land of the Jews intolerable. The Rebbetzin recalled the situation when they were a starving young couple, lacking the resources to purchase food. “There was a woman that I met who nebach lost her son in a car accident. I met her by mere chance,” she said. “She wanted to donate some money to us in her son’s memory, and I thought it was a piece of unexpected good fortune—really a miracle—that I had met her. I told my husband about what had transpired and he had only one question for me: Did the woman keep and observe Shabbos?” They concluded the story saying that, sadly, the woman was not shomer Shabbos, and her husband refused to accept the money.
As devoted Jews, many of us here feel that the State of Israel, situated in our ancient homeland, represents us all and defines us as a people, on a multiplicity of levels. We are composed of people from many different backgrounds, orientations, and customs. Our ancestors hail from different continents and countries. In a sense, within the relatively small but global Orthodox Jewish community we are frequently unified by our diversity.
And viewing Israel as central to our lives may even be a healthy thing. One only hopes that some of the strong feelings voiced last week, albeit by a fringe minority, are not based on the different ways the Rebbe’s chassidim and those of us here lead our lives. We would all probably be better off not displaying for the public the intertribal differences that very often set us apart from one another. Feeding fuel to this divisive fire conjures up the worst kind of prejudices, which we certainly have no right to display against one another.
In fact it does immeasurable damage, because the critics of Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael are gleefully watching, pleased that we can attempt to harm one another’s causes by vilifying and denigrating a segment—no matter how much we disagree with them—of our people. By indulging in this kind of practice, we do the bidding of our critics, and that must make them extremely content and satisfied.
Aside from the money they so desperately need, the Rebbe says that each time he comes to New York he gets a chance to get closer to Jews he otherwise would not have the opportunity to come in contact with. “I draw closer to them and I hope that through the relationship they are able to come closer to Hashem,” he said.
To many of us, the image of Israel and her survival is the greatest and most challenging undertaking of our time. I don’t believe that the Toldos Avraham Yitzchak Rebbe feels any differently about this issue. It may very well be that those chassidim of various sects—perhaps only on the periphery—who question the entire concept of Zionism, its proliferation, and support do so because of the fashion in which Shabbos has been trampled on all too often over the years.
We are passionate about the survival of Israel. Perhaps we are willing to overlook some aspects of what we consider the compromised Jewish character of the state in the interest of the greater good of her survival. If that is so, then that’s where our convictions may diverge with the Rebbe’s. He, too, is passionate about Israel—where he and his children reside—but he is just as passionate about the sanctity of the holy Shabbos as it relates to the Jewish state. Dismissing and denigrating him is a hurtful simplification of the reality.
Comments for Larry Gordon are welcome at editor@5tjt.com. ♦
1 - Posted on 11/11/2009 5:53:07 PM
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Shabbos is not the only problem - maybe he meant it is the worst for him personally - but even if the government was frum it would still be assur to have a Jewish state before Moshiach as it is a problem of pikuach nefesh with the shalosh shavuos. If we lived there under a non-denominational government it would be better. (of course people should try to be frum but that is personal business, not government)
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by Anonymous |
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2 - Posted on 11/11/2009 7:24:13 PM
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Why is the Rebbetzin fielding all the tougher questions?
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by Anonymous |
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3 - Posted on 11/12/2009 9:05:29 AM
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I would like to understand how the jewish state is considered as "central to our lives" or "the State of Israel, situated in our ancient homeland, represents us all and defines us as a people"? what defines us a a poeple is only the Torah and the Torah and observing it is what has transpired the Jewish people to live on and continue the tradition for all of the years since the desecration of the temples 2000 years ago. The newly created government in Israel never had any effect on Torah living Jews who, in fact, did not benefit anything of its government and if something it only had the opposite effect.
As per the statement of the Rabbi, "If there would not be this violation of Shabbos, we would have absolutely no problem with the State of Israel.” I know the rabbi personally, and I fully deny that he has said these words. as stated the rabbi spoke in Yiddish and I clearly believe that those words were misinterpreted. Enough said.
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by Anonymous |
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4 - Posted on 11/12/2009 9:12:42 AM
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I agree with the previous comment and would like to add the following.
Rabbi Don Segal said in a recent speech that the Holy Land's Jewish community is in grave danger, even greater than that of outside Eretz Yisroel, because of "rebelling against the Shalosh Shevuos." (The so-called Shalos Shevuous is a reference to Gemara Kesubos 111a, which interprets a verse in Shir HaShirim as containing three oaths Jews must not violate while in exile:
1. returning to the Holy Land by force,
2. rebelling against the Nations, and
3. delaying Moshiach by their sins.
Rabbi Segal continued by saying, "Only the Torah and Mitzvos Jews observe here provide protection." Rav Segal also derided the belief that the Jewish State is part of the Torah belief in Geulah, and that is actually the opposite.
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by Anonymous |
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5 - Posted on 11/12/2009 10:19:26 AM
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"The newly created government in Israel never had any effect on Torah living Jews who, in fact, did not benefit anything of its government and if something it only had the opposite effect. "
This, of course, is demonstrably false. Israel is, for the first time since the Churban, the world center of Torah life. This did not happen by accident. The "evil" Zionists created the infrastructure needed to support such a massive resurgance. There are numerous refutations of using the Shalosh Shavuot as a basis for resisting the state.
Bottom line is that, such a massive return of God's people to their land could not have been possible without HIS assistance. To believe otherwise would seem like heresy.
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by Menachem Lipkin |
Beit Shemesh |
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6 - Posted on 11/12/2009 11:09:36 AM
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"Rabbi Don Segal said in a recent speech that the Holy Land's Jewish community is in grave danger, even greater than that of outside Eretz Yisroel, because of "rebelling against the Shalosh Shevuos."
Well, since there's no prophecy today, his guess as good as anyone's. But there is that little problem that the Shalosh Shavuot are a pretty lame excuse for for opposing the state. Especially given that, lomdish reasons aside, NONE of them apply.
(BTW, I assume that it's your mistake and not Rabbi Segal's, but those are NOT the 3 promises. The 3rd one is that the nations of the world should not oppress the Jews too much during the exile. Does the Holocaust ring a bell?)
So if we're guessing as to reasons why the Jews in Israel appear to be in such danger...maybe it's because God rolled out the red carpet for us here and our response, given that only half of us are here, is that we collectively smacked HIM in the face.
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by Menachem Lipkin |
Beit Shemesh |
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7 - Posted on 11/12/2009 11:42:17 AM
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I totally agree with Mr. Lipkin and would like to add that these "Rabbis" do almost as much harm to Jews than their friends in Iran. They should be thanking G-d everyday for Israel -- including IDF who protect them and their anti-Zionist behavior.
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by Anonymous |
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8 - Posted on 11/12/2009 11:55:37 AM
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You say that you suggested to the rebbe a way to bring the goventment money to the USA and then it would be OK for him to accept. Where I am from we call that money laundering. Have we learened nothing from people in our community trying to get away with "shticklach" the last few months? Do we really need more people with yarmulkas on being paraded in handcuffs?
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by HF |
Lake Success |
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9 - Posted on 11/12/2009 12:11:46 PM
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Mr. Gordon, did we learn nothing from the Spinke Rebbe, from Deal, from all the other Orthodox criminals that have been arrested recently for financial crimes and laundering that you have the gall to suggest publicly to this rebbe that he find a way to "kasher" his government money by having it flow through different sources? You want to talk about sensational journalism, you are suggesting this rebbe commit fraud against the State of Israel, you should be ashamed of yourself.
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by Simcha |
Lake Success |
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10 - Posted on 11/12/2009 1:00:30 PM
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"That position, it seems, was based mostly on the need of some to sensationalize, dramatize, and exaggerate a situation that has only a minimal resemblance to reality. "
Frankly, the only thing that has a minimal resemblance to reality is this article. I am not going into detail, but those of us who live cheek and jowl with these Chassidim live quite a different "reality" every day.
Remember, this Rebbe was in the US to raise money. Do you really think he's going to be totally forthcoming with the 5TJT? I think not.
According to you, the Rebbe said, “If there would not be this violation of Shabbos, we would have absolutely no problem with the State of Israel.” Really. So they'd be fine with women in the army? Gay parades in Tel Aviv? Mixed swimming in Ashdod? Heter Mechira?
We know for a fact, as members of the Eida Chareidis they would have major "problems" even the state were SS. There is much more disingenuity, but suffice it to say you were taken for a PR ride.
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by Menachem Lipkin |
Beit Shemesh |
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11 - Posted on 11/12/2009 1:57:52 PM
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The healing must begin now:
Only for those Jews wishing to be like Aharon Rodef Shalom
and seek Achdus using the concept of "Ahavas Yisrael."
A non-denomination Jewish Project
You are invited to visit us at the very
exciting new website:
http://thegreenshtreimel.com/
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by The Green Shtreimel |
Bobover Park, OH |
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12 - Posted on 11/12/2009 2:16:25 PM
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Mr. Lipkin I think your understanding of one of the 3 promises is false and maybe a part of the brainwashing to kosher the creation a state of Israel before our final redemption. I also appreciate your second post where you agree that the rabbis words are not to be taken as a final portrait of these great tzadik, but i differ in reason, as I said I cant believe he said it. since he spoke in Yiddish there is no accurate statement can be drown from his statements.
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by Anonymous |
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13 - Posted on 11/12/2009 2:22:47 PM
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Mr. Lipkin
Regarding whether Zionism and the Jewish state is to thank for making E. Yisroel the center of the Torah life, this is surely arguable. since the second world war destructed Jewish life in Europe, thousands of Jews traveled to Israel even without having any relation with the Zionist party and even thousands of Jews strongly opposing it. Most of the yeshivas (the Big ones) started even before the the state was created. And even more then that, Torah has a promise to survive and if you think that that promise which is stated in the gemurah several times was meant to be by the Zionists, then our argument hasn't started yet.
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by Anonymous |
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14 - Posted on 11/12/2009 2:23:32 PM
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The idea of money being transferred from the Israel government to the US and recipients here donating it to Toldos Avraham Yitzchok was not intended in any way to hint or encourage that anyone participate in a money laundering scam.
The Israel government---as odd as it may seem---funds several America based Jewish programs to the tune of many millions of dollars. Additionally the suggestion was nothing more than a light-hearted suggestion to the Rebbe considering that the Education Ministry in Israel would like to fund their schools but they just won't accept the money.
I apologize for any misunderstanding.
LG
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by Anonymous |
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15 - Posted on 11/12/2009 3:28:52 PM
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"Torah has a promise to survive and if you think that that promise which is stated in the gemurah several times was meant to be by the Zionists, then our argument hasn't started yet. "
Here's a terrific quote for you from Rav Teichtal quoting Rav Aharon Fisch.
"Leave them alone! We do not truly know how the redemption will unfold. In one place the Zohar states the Jerusalem will be rebuilt and the exiles will be gathered before the redemption. Elsewhere the Zohar states that redemption will occur without our intervention. Thus it is unclear what the Creator of the Universe wants. Therefore, if we see that many Jews desire to rebuild the Land, even if they are the greatest sinners. who could be so brazen and arrogant to interfere with their work? Perhaps Hashem wants the rebuilding to be done specifically by people like these. Why must you involve yourself with God's hidden matters? God, the Cause of All Causes knows how to cause things to happen. Leave them alone!"
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by Menachem Lipkin |
Beit Shemesh |
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16 - Posted on 11/13/2009 12:51:05 PM
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ITS AGAINST THE TORAH TO BELIEVE THAT ANYONE DOING ACTS AGAINST THE TORAH IS THE ROTZON HASHEM!
THIS IS RIDICULES!
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by Anonymous |
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17 - Posted on 11/14/2009 12:41:21 PM
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"Mr. Lipkin I think your understanding of one of the 3 promises is false "
Please, don't "think". Look it up. (And then ask yourself if you should really be tossing around that "brainwashing" accusation so freely.)
I also strongly suggest you (and everyone) read "Eim Habanim Semeicha". It was written by a "Chareidi" Gadol in Europe, Rav Teichtal. He was certainly no Zionist, but he came to see the error in his anti-Zionist ways. In this Sefer, with countless sources, he explains why that philosophy was so wrong.
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by Menachem Lipkin |
Beit Shemesh |
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18 - Posted on 11/14/2009 5:54:48 PM
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www.thegreenshtreimel.com
For all who love and serve Hashem.
All the best,
The Green Shtreimel
by The Green Shtreimel Bobover Park, OH
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by The Green Shtreimel |
Bobover Park, OH |
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19 - Posted on 11/16/2009 9:01:28 AM
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I would tend to agree with the above commenter's that the author of this article mistranslated the words of the Rebbe and Rebbitzen. But upon further reflection I think the reality is so far off, that it is far more likely the author concocted major portions of this so-called interview.
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by Robert |
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20 - Posted on 11/16/2009 6:47:34 PM
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I didnt see anyone question the fact this "rebbe" refused tzedaka from someone who wanted to partake of this mitzvah because this "rebbe" disqualified her from this mitzvah becasue she didnt keep shabbos? This "rebbe" is a complete ignorant person who is not knowlegable in basic halacha or have a single ounce of sechel?
Its astounding that anyone would want a bracha from someone who would deny someone a most important mitvah? Where is the heter to deny this mitzvah other than this "rebbes" subjective handbook
Larry Gordon thinks this is principled - Larry this is completely against the Torah! I can mention a lot of other people who are principled!!
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by Anonymous |
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21 - Posted on 11/16/2009 10:59:34 PM
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Larry is not "completely against the Torah."
Larry is not even "partially" against the Torah.
In fact, I would state certainly that Larry Gordon
is "for" the Torah, wholeheartely "pro" Torah.
As for a heter to "not accept" charity from a person -
while not knowing or wanting to besmirch the potential
bestower, I would state that there is one time when you cannot accept a gift from someone, and this is
called "etnan zonah" (literally "the gift of a harlot") which is Parshat Ki Teistay and is applicable in the Beit Hamikdash regarding Karbanot or other gifts and by extension, to certain charitable institutions, as well.
Perhaps, there was more going on here than you realize.
I learned this logical reasoning and principle of Dan Lekav Zechut from my Teacher, The Luksheneh Rebbe - who is a dear friend of The Green Shtreimel.
You can visit 'The Green Shtreimel' at
www.thegreenshtreimel.com
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by The Legendary Danny O'Doul |
Wemphis, NY |
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22 - Posted on 11/17/2009 10:30:19 AM
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Wow Mr. Danny O'Doul. This "rebbe" is not hiding his views yet you still try to justify it. Its amazing how far you abandon your own mind. So, your logic is because this poor woman did not keep shabbos she is a zonah? Open the Rambam Perek 10 in hilchos matnoos aniyyim, see how careful one needs to be with Tzedaka and than think of the magnitude of the chilul hashem this rebbe did by playing god? Than think to yourself how many jewish souls have been lost by some crazy lunetic sporadically running out of the beis medrash to scream at people - Do yourself and everyone a favor and be honest.
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by Anonymous |
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23 - Posted on 11/17/2009 11:05:02 AM
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It seems to me that you are treating the Rebbe and his views, even more charitably than I am.
You are trashing him, yet you qualify him as a "legitimate"
collector of Tzedakah.
This either means that you consider his group a worthy charitable cause, or that you trust The Rebbe sufficiently to make him an honest collector and careful distributor of Tzedaka.
If this is NOT what you really think than you should not
be trashing The Rebbe as a discriminating collector of funds.
Now, please don't call me "dishonest" - you're internal logic is
flawed.
All the best,
The Legendary Danny O"Doul
Talmid of The Luksheneh Rebbe
Author of "Exotic Tales of The Green Shtreimel"
www.greenshtreimel.com
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by The Legendary Danny O'Doul |
Wemphis, NY |
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24 - Posted on 11/17/2009 8:59:21 PM
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Danny, "internal logic", you are more interested in winning an argument than in discovering truth. I am confidant an honest minded person can understand the arguments/points of view above and decide this issue for themselves. I can see from this thread and others that you are well, just bored.
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by Anonymous |
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25 - Posted on 11/17/2009 9:17:39 PM
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I don't really care about arguing, and you are correct, this issue of the Rebbe never really interested me at all.
You see, I come from the Bronx and we didn't have Chassidic Rabbis in our neighborhood. A Martian landing near Lehman College would have been more likely than a Chassidic Rabbi visiting our Shul.
Yet, in the Five Towns, everybody has at least "two bekeshes," "a shtreimel," a gartel and a black homberg or fedora.
It's like going to a dude ranch where all the city slickers where nicely pressed couture westerwear, including sidearms and chaps.
It's not that I really care, I mean we are all Jews and I don't have anything against them, but it's kind of getting old and
this right wing hooey is turning this once proud newspaper into The National Enquirer for the New Boro Park - "The Five Towns."
This is why I dress in my shabby chic garb, which is a cross between the Larry The Cableguy, the homeless and Ralph Lauren.
You must maintain a measure of individuality
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by The Legendary Danny O'Doul |
Wemphis, NY |
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